Ethics, Spirituality, and Social Darwinism

[ricofederico (deleted)]

Let's switch up the theme of the topics here on the General sub- forum. Let's get philosophical. Anyone with me?

I have a topic of conversation for anyone willing to go in this direction. I'll start it by asking a series of questions:

1. Can you be spiritual without being ethical? Can you have ethics without spirituality, or vice versa?

2. Are ethics even based on a practical reality? Is spirituality, for that matter?

3. Can you be logical, or a student of logic, while still retaining a magical sense of the world?

4. I agree more with the concepts behind Social Darwinism and the social contract rather than with ideas about ethics stemming from concepts like Metaphysical Duality. Anyone? Anyone?

[cookinbubbles]

`Good Lord child, I don't even know what #4 means, the whole darn bit of it!
Anyway, I liked the first question.
I think you can have spirituality and ethics separately. I tend to break things down to their simplest form so here goes.
There are a TON of past present and probably future "spiritual" people who have no ethics what so ever. The kind that will Praise God on Sunday morning and denounce anyone who looks different later that same day. That, to me is spiritual without ethics.
Of course the opposite is also quite true. there are many wonderfully ethic people out there who have never taken the time to smell the roses, ponder on who created this marvelous universe or exactly who the heavens were designed for.
You can probably pick apart everything I said with more of # 4 but like I said, I break down my view of the world to its simplest form. LOL

#2 and #3 I will leave this one for another day.

[ricofederico (deleted)]

Quote: `Good Lord child, I don't even know what #4 means, the whole darn bit of it!

Not a problem! Here are some quick links to browse concerning these concepts:

Social Darwinism: (removed)

Metaphysical Duality (From Wikipedia entry Dualism): In philosophy of mind, dualism is any of a narrow variety of views about the relationship between mind and matter, which claims that mind and matter are two ontologically separate categories. In particular, mind-body dualism claims that neither the mind nor matter can be reduced to each other in any way, and thus is opposed to materialism in general, and reductive materialism in particular

Quote: There are a TON of past present and probably future "spiritual" people who have no ethics what so ever. The kind that will Praise God on Sunday morning and denounce anyone who looks different later that same day. That, to me is spiritual without ethics.

Praising God on Sunday morning has more to do with theistic and theological beliefs, practice, or behavior than it has to do with spirituality per se. I know that you prefaced this statement with the words
"To me..." but I think before a good discussion about sprituality and ethics were to develop, the participants would all need to be agreed on, and clear about, the definitions of these words and concepts.

Appropriately, a quick dictionary look-up might render more clarification on these ideas,and the use of a common lexicon - such as that defined by commonly-accepted, easily-accessible publications like Merriam-Websters and Cambridge - may be in order, and much desired.

Consequently, spirituality is not at all the worship of a deity. That is not the definition of the term. Theistic belief and practices may fall under the large scope of spiritual-oriented behavior, but it is not spirituality itself.

As an aside, ethics as a concept has less to do with morals than with simple idealogical behavior in any given society. Morals are dogmatic and arbitrary given the culture and belief system that may give rise to them; ethics as a concept lie more in the realm of the larger sociological territory than in any culture they may influence. In this sense, your implicated description of ethics in relation to theism is also fundamentally false.

Basically, you addressed theism and morals, while I was attempting a conversation about spirituality and ethics. =)

WiseGeek has an appropriate primer on the subtle difference between ethics and morals here: (removed)

And Wikipedia's entry on spirituality can be viewed here: (removed)

[sharlie27]

`Final a subject I can take a bite out of..with a smile! And if I wasn't in the middle of writing a paper for a psy class I would...I will be back to this question tomorrow. I would be careful using Wikipedia as a reference though...too easy to change. okay...maybe I'll tiptoe in for a moment. what do you define as ethical? Is there a set standard? Are you pulling from a Dualist, Empiricists or other's view?
1. I think you can be spiritual without being ethical if the ethics you are looking at are those of the world or outside(by this mean not of your personal space) authority. I pray. Does this make me a spiritual person, some would say yes...does this make me an enlightened person...not necessarily. I pray. Does it make a ethical person? Maybe¦ depends on whose standards of ethics I am being compared to¦.I like Aristotles Ethics¦not a student of his but still much respect for him and those before him. (removed)
2. Practical reality..hm...this I will have to think on before answering.
3.Yes! Being logical and seeing the magic in the world do not have to be separate. Children are the greatest example of this. My niece is very logical, she wants to know how everything works, how to figure it out(She wants to be a brain surgeon). She also believes in angels, fairies and Santa Claus. Do I know that some of those beliefs will change as she gets older...sure as she will become more logical but I hope she always keeps at least a sense of wonder. I am a pretty logical person myself but I like to think I can see the magic the world allows me to see.
4. I'll get back to you on this also.

[ricofederico (deleted)]

Quote: I would be careful using Wikipedia as a reference though...too easy to change.

This is a common misconception taught in many modern classrooms. Wikipedia is NOT easy to change. If it is, please change the entry on Dualism so that the first paragraph will read, "Dualism is the same thing as relativism." Such an assertion is false, of course, but let's see, for the sake of argument, whether or not that is easily changed on the Wikipedia entry, and for how long this change will go unchallenged or unnoticed.

The reason that Wikipedia is not cited in many academic circles and not allowed to be cited in many classrooms is not because it is easily changed, but because in the recent past, it was not peer-reviewed in major peer-review journals or scientific literature of the academic elite. That trend, though, is beginning to reverse, as the popularity of Wikipedia and sites like it is gaining weight and being noticed for its influence.

Also, I include the Wikipedia links as quick introductions to the concepts and definitions appropriate to the terms I'm using. It would be bad form for me to direct someone to a paid class at their local college or library, now, wouldn't it? It would be bad form because I would have failed to demonstrate validation of my definition in some other publicized work, like Wikipedia. Wikipedia is considered published, in the sense that the material is publicly available for consumption and scrutiny.

Quote: what do you define as ethical?

For the sake of discussion, I am less concerned with personal, minority definitions of concepts that have already been defined by major publications such as Merriam-Webster, Cambridge, and the like. Think about it: If we were to all give our own definitions of easily researched terms, confusion and conundrum are the sure result.

For the sakes of purity and clarity, I stick to the dictionary definitions of the terms I use.

Quote: Is there a set standard? Are you pulling from a Dualist, Empiricists or other's view?

Well, I am actually asking a question involving commonly known definitions of these words. I'm not really pulling from any one viewpoint in asking a question, really. What I mean is...is that it would be more appropriate to categorize my initial post as something like a viewpoint if it took the form of a statement with premises and conclusions, but I have not done so as yet. I merely posed questions.

This inquiry appears to stem from an epistemological motivation. An epistemologically-oriented investigation into these definitions may be in order, however. =)


Quote: I think you can be spiritual without being ethical if the ethics you are looking at are those of the world or outside(by this mean not of your personal space) authority.

Agreed. Taken by itself, this is true. I disagree with the appropriateness of the examples given, namely, that of prayer as an antecedent to the demonstration, but I do agree with the statement as it stands by itself. Ethics do not necessitate spirituality, nor does spirituality necessitate or presume adherence to any system of ethics.

Quote: She also believes in angels, fairies and Santa Claus. Do I know that some of those beliefs will change as she gets older...sure as she will become more logical but I hope she always keeps at least a sense of wonder.

I agree with the overall mood of the assertion this statement was included in, but not the use of the statement in the theme itself: that magic equals fairy tales.

Merriam-Webster's 2nd definition of magic: an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source.

The operative word there is "seemingly". To reiterate, I asked:

3. Can you be logical, or a student of logic, while still retaining a magical sense of the world?

A magical sense of the world, in this context, can be, say, a sense that not everything in the world has a convenient explanation...that there are still mysterious occurrences that transpire all around us, and that wonder and enchantment are precursors to curiosity. It does not necessarily entail a belief that flying unicorns exist in this reality, merely that some events that occur seem to be out of the scope of the ordinary, known, or easily explainable. Word to the paranormal, anyone? =)



Social Darwinism: Refers to various ideologies based on a concept that competition among all individuals, groups, nations, or ideas drives social evolution in human societies.

"Thus the weak members of civilized societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man himself, hardly any one is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed."

- The Descent Of Man, Charles Darwin



What I meant by asking if ethics were real, was that I think every individual (with the exception of the obviously --------) rules their own life by some sort of strategy or tactical behavior, and that ethical, moral, virtuous, or altruistic behavior or ideals is actually supported in application by these individual stretgies and tactics developed and cultivated by individuals throughout their lives.

To me, it is easy to see how ethics, morals, and virtues are actually based on a social stratagem, a stratagem that may be so subtle that it serves to deceive both the performer or believer and those it may affect. So I will use an altruistic act as an example of what I am saying, as in my discussions with people, they always revert back to an altruistic act as a final refuge in the arguments.

Even if an individual is altruistic to a degree, altruistic actions serve to strategically fulfill some emotion based on a spiritual or ethical ideal, or even facilitates the resolution of a spontaneous idea and the emotions associated with that idea.

For instance, an altruistically-bent individual is walking down a busy downtown street in San Francisco, and is almost home, and gets the idea that they'll give their subway pass to the nearest stranger that may need it, simply as a random act of kindness" a courtesy, if you will. Or even better, they still have the whole day ahead of them, but they know they have money to get another one and it won't break their bank account to do so. So they do so.
My assertion is that this individual, at some deeper level, by performing the action, is actually resolving a conflict between what they would feel like if they didn't follow the ideal, and what they would feel like if they did - even if the transition between those emotions and ideas lasts just a few moments. Once done, the action dissipates the small amount of stress that may have been developing as they consider the timeliness of the factors involved. In a case such as this, I assert that nothing is done for no reason or benefit to the doer, unless by force.

In the final analysis, I would say that - conceptually - ethics, morals, and virtue do not really exist, save as part of some other supporting structure or framework for behavior: namely, the social contract, or a self-benefiting spiritual ideology. Following this, conclude that, maybe not ideally but practically, ethics, morals, and virtue are non-existent outside of a fantasy ideal, or at the very least, have very little, if any, practical value.

[southernfinery]

`yep I can see how YOU would not believe in ethics,morals and virtue.Tell me how does wicca play into your theological misconceptions of the human makeup and the spirituality of mankind?You know I get the feeling deep down in my spirit that you are the kind of young man that would ride by a homeless person and throw things at them just to see how it makes you feel.I would venture to go even further and say that you probably have a very hard time feeling anything at all unless it is of the extreme nature...............................Cookinbubbles you called it right when you said child and I am very sorry for the ill-mannered way in which this child responded to your comment.I guess we know how he responds to his parents while still living in their home practising his darwin verses spiritual verses ethical verses whatever lol...................There was a post similar to this one on christian passions but at least the old man had the moral eptitude to tell readers he had been sent to experience electrical shock therapy before his dive into something very very similar to this guys postings(plural I know)..........You know when I was younger I thought I was invincible but life taught me different.Sometimes the best way to learn about life is just to live it and by listening to those that have lived alot of it already.When you do you find that darwin wasn't the end all to be all and wikipedia doesn't have any real answers for spirituality.

[ricofederico (deleted)]

southernhumbuggery: Your bitterness is disturbing, to put it patiently...and...

I'm not the only person who has voiced this concern:

So has princessadrianna:

(removed)

Quote: I was going to say something before....but decided against it because who am I to correct you....I don't want you as my woman...I'm looking for a man. But then I read this, and though there are some things you say that are true....u went over the top. I said all tat to say....damn, you are the most negative person on largepassions.com and it's sad. Every forum I comment in, if you have commented as well, it's something negative or a wisecrack. Are you happy?

Kisses and Cupcakes
Princess



I won't humor your playground insults here with more juvenile behavior. I mean, pretty soon here you'll be throwing out Yo Mama jokes and calling me a stupid-head dummy-face.

Think of it! If I engage you in that arena, we'll open a hole in the space-time continuum, trumpets will blare, sirens will sound, dogs and cats will start living together.. MASS HYSTERIA!

[southernfinery]

`who don't like my post?Your kidding right? you remind me of a stupid-head-dummy-face rofl,ok you know you wanted me to say.I don't care who likes my opinions and who doesn't because they are MY OPINIONS.i OWN THEM LOCK,STOCK,AND BARREL......psst just between you and me.I think the hysteria has already begun.

[ricofederico (deleted)]

[sharlie27]

`Rico:
Ethics: I think we live by several different codes here. I know I live by my personal, professional, society and spiritual codes. I know these codes can conflict in some degrees but each one colors the other. Such as I would never work somewhere that goes against my personal ethics but I have worked in a place that somewhat conflicted with my spiritual code..it was a haunted house(not commercial)
Magical sense of the world: Yes. There are a million things we cant explain in this world and another million we only think we can.You mention the paranormal. I believe in the paranormal. I believe in the things I cant explain. I dont think magic completely equals fairies or flying unicorns but I think the innocence in those things is a magic that adults can only wish to have as we get older.
"altruistic actions serve to strategically fulfill some emotion based on a spiritual or ethical ideal, or even facilitates the resolution of a spontaneous idea and the emotions associated with that idea. "
I agree.


Southernfinery...I know I am going to regret this but...How do you know you are right with the spiritual path you have chosen? To quote you about Rico
"yep I can see how YOU would not believe in ethics,morals and virtue.Tell me how does wicca play into your theological misconceptions of the human makeup and the spirituality of mankind?You know I get the feeling deep down in my spirit that you are the kind of young man that would ride by a homeless person and throw things at them just to see how it makes you feel.I would venture to go even further and say that you probably have a very hard time feeling anything at all unless it is of the extreme nature"
You close all of your post gbu¦.how does this paragraph reflect the love of Christ? To me you come across as judgmental and lack understanding. And what is wrong with feeling things to the extreme?
“When you do you find that darwin wasn't the end all to be all and wikipedia doesn't have any real answers for spirituality.
Are you aware that Darwin did believe in God? In fact was brought up in the church. Now later in his life his beliefs were altered due to his findings and studies but he felt religion was a personal matter and science was separate from that.


Alright yall..dont tear into me too badly.

[ricofederico (deleted)]

Quote: I dont think magic completely equals fairies or flying unicorns but I think the innocence in those things is a magic that adults can only wish to have as we get older.

Yeah, it's like, we know that it is absurd in this normal sense of looking at the world, but the desire for those fantasies to be realities is always there. I'll also say this: it is this habituated manner of interpreting the world (that of the norm) that prevents these fantasies from being more than that, I think.

The world is more than perception, of course, but perception does play a key role in shaping our world via the phenomena of displacement, patterning, agglutination, coherence, and agreement.

It is a monumental effort to truly elicit another description of the universe, of reality. But it is possible.

[southernfinery]

`ok sharlie27 to answer your question I must first ask you one?Are you a christian?I mean saved and borne again under the blood of the lamb not the mess about well as long as I do what I think is right then I am a christian.ok on to your question about how does this paragraph reflect the love of christ=because it is the truth.I end all my post with God bless you because of what is written in matthew chapter 5 verse 44 that we are to love our enemies,bless those who curse you,do good to those who hate you,and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.I say that I forgive because in matthew ch. 6 it says in verse 14 that if you forgive men their trespasses your heavenly father will also forgive you....gbu..........p.s I will agree with the assumption about wikipedia changing because I know of some folks that have sent in their definitions of a word or situation and the meaning was changed to cater to the popular vote of what some thought it should mean.Which in my opinion just leads to confusion which inturn confuses people who look to it for answers.......

[sharlie27]

`Southernfinery: Yes I am a christian. Born Again. Saved under the blood.
I do not question your religious choices, I question your reflection of those choices. Christ calls us to be christ like. For others to know we are christians by our love. I don't always feel that in your post. I feel like you attack and do it in a such a way that it almost seems nice if the person you are addressing wasn't quicker. It's kind of like cutting someone down and smiling while you do it. As christian we are not suppose to judge others or call to question their beliefs. We can share ours but the judgement and follow through of their choices will be dealt with by God.
I think that you are a wonderful person and probably are a very caring and good natured person, I just ask that you be careful how you address people and respond to a post.

[southernfinery]

`sharlie27 ty for that heart felt response and I promise to take it into consideration.I have a request also and that is that you not be so judgemental of my post.Sometimes folks get preoccupied with how something is written instead of focusing on what is written.It's like when someone misspells a word but yet makes an overall well thought out statement.Here comes someone who just focuses on the missspelled word but doesn't even address the overall point of the statement.Sometimes folks read more into a response then is really there trying to put things or words into the posters mouth so to speak.I always try my best to put a thought about response down but there are some things that I simply can't tolerate. One is the prastice of witchcraft and calling it a religion.I can't stomach young men or young women demanding respect and yet they speak to their elders like they are less then human and have the mentality of a tree leaf.I don't judge anyone because I can't but I do call a door a door and a dud a dud.I won't stand before the judgement throne on that day and give account of myself for being a fence-sitter and I won't be made to give account for anyone else because I can't.I wish you all the best--gbu